South London Network global misalignment

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South London Network global misalignment

Postby xguerra on Thu May 18, 2017 1:16 pm

I noticed today, while doing some investigating, that the South London Network is misaligned from the real-world coordinates.
i.e. Google Overlay, which is constantly aligned to global coordinates, is not aligned to the scenery.

This seems strange to me since you wouldn't expect the whole route to be misaligned unless it was previously cloned, when built, from another route.

So is there any known way to realign the route, for example by offsetting everything by a known long & lat?
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Re: South London Network global misalignment

Postby johnrossetti on Thu May 18, 2017 2:55 pm

Are you sure ?
Here is a picture of my train at Battersea Park Station and a picture of my position in Google Earth, using train maps live
SE Position.jpg

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Re: South London Network global misalignment

Postby jetstream on Thu May 18, 2017 3:07 pm

When you say 'misaligned', do you mean that, for example, north isn't orientated with north; or are you referring to the fact that the entire route is displaced from real-world position? If the latter, just take a look at Western Mailines where the sim is offset by at least 1/2 miles from the google earth reference.
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Re: South London Network global misalignment

Postby danny3 on Thu May 18, 2017 3:23 pm

London Bridge is about 300m off where it is meant to be, basically because when the person did the track for London Bridge towards East Croydon he used (I assume) used decals (the overlay wasn't present at the time), however the Victoria to South Croydon section should be correct, as should the Brixton to Kent House sections (the latter was done with the Overlay - I did that bit )

I know too well about london bridge being off (nothing against the person who did the track of course - there are good reasons) - It has made my South London & Thameslink route a lot harder to finish for me.
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Re: South London Network global misalignment

Postby xguerra on Thu May 18, 2017 3:43 pm

Ok resolved.

Thanks all!
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Re: South London Network global misalignment

Postby gptech on Thu May 18, 2017 8:35 pm

The earth is approximately 12,750,000 m in diameter---are you really quibbling over a 300m discrepancy?

(0.00235 %, give or take....)
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Re: South London Network global misalignment

Postby tnleeuw01 on Thu May 18, 2017 9:18 pm

gptech wrote:The earth is approximately 12,750,000 m in diameter---are you really quibbling over a 300m discrepancy?

(0.00235 %, give or take....)


On the scale we are working on, when modelling and connecting things? Yes!

When they were connecting the railroads from the West and the east of the USA, do you think a difference of 300mm would have been worth squabbling over? Yes it would have been!

So imagine how bad is 300m!

;-)

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Re: South London Network global misalignment

Postby longbow on Thu May 18, 2017 9:42 pm

If your track and your DEM are 300m apart I can guarantee route building misery.
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Re: South London Network global misalignment

Postby gptech on Thu May 18, 2017 10:29 pm

tnleeuw01 wrote:When they were connecting the railroads from the West and the east of the USA, do you think a difference of 300mm would have been worth squabbling over? Yes it would have been! So imagine how bad is 300m!


You mean they didn't look where each end was in relation to the other until they actually met?
There's world of difference between making a real-world connection, and depicting something in a game where you can use a bit of artistic licence.

longbow wrote:If your track and your DEM are 300m apart I can guarantee route building misery.


Amazing how so many routes have been produced then really, isn't it?
danny3 wrote:London Bridge is about 300m off where it is meant to be, basically because when the person did the track for London Bridge towards East Croydon he used (I assume) used decals (the overlay wasn't present at the time)

jetstream wrote:Western Mailines where the sim is offset by at least 1/2 miles from the google earth reference.
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Re: South London Network global misalignment

Postby secludedsfx on Fri May 19, 2017 12:15 am

gptech wrote:
tnleeuw01 wrote:When they were connecting the railroads from the West and the east of the USA, do you think a difference of 300mm would have been worth squabbling over? Yes it would have been! So imagine how bad is 300m!


You mean they didn't look where each end was in relation to the other until they actually met?
There's world of difference between making a real-world connection, and depicting something in a game where you can use a bit of artistic licence.

longbow wrote:If your track and your DEM are 300m apart I can guarantee route building misery.


Amazing how so many routes have been produced then really, isn't it?
danny3 wrote:London Bridge is about 300m off where it is meant to be, basically because when the person did the track for London Bridge towards East Croydon he used (I assume) used decals (the overlay wasn't present at the time)

jetstream wrote:Western Mailines where the sim is offset by at least 1/2 miles from the google earth reference.


Well first of all because Western Mainline's is offset some of the gradients are wrong (like between Didcot and Swindon) as well as certain areas not having embankments next to the track (like near Iver).

And you forgot to quote Danny's other quote that offsets make it incredibly difficult to build (I've been having this issue with scenerying new areas of the PDL sometimes).
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Re: South London Network global misalignment

Postby xguerra on Fri May 19, 2017 7:22 am

Having talked to Danny privately the issue came out of the use of decals pre-dating the Google Overlay which may have been skewed and compressed, changing the perception of distances across the map.

It's unfortunate but it's an issue that is unlikely to crop up again in future routes. And I'll manage with what I was going to do.
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Re: South London Network global misalignment

Postby hertsbob on Fri May 19, 2017 9:52 pm

Seriously? I can't believe you're suggesting that a 300m discrepancy is acceptable! :o

In my world a discrepancy of 300mm means it's time to start thinking about relaying the track to get the right alignment... :robot:

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Re: South London Network global misalignment

Postby gptech on Fri May 19, 2017 11:54 pm

Yes Bob...you know my standards are lower than a snake's belly :wink:

Let's just throw some facts, real not alternative, about....

SNL was released in November 2014.
It's taken 2 1/2 years for this huge error to be stumbled upon. (Discounting Danny who was keeping it to himself)

Does that mean that the 2 1/2 years some may have had enjoying the route actually be a false memory?.....after all, who can truly enjoy anything that isn't perfect?
Shame the eligibility period for a return/refund from Steam has elapsed.

OK, London Bridge is apparently in the *wrong* place, but it makes no odds at all to the route as supplied---it's only when wanting to edit (AKA change) the route (and like all changes to anything supplied by anybody, at your own risk and by inference, inconvenience) that any problems surface.
DEM?...irrelevant in this instance; the route already has the terrain at a certain height---whether that's accurate or not is yet to be seen, but any alterations to terrain height would only be to suit a rework; once again absolutely nothing to do with the route as supplied.

Yes, it may make editing/extending/backdating/merging/whatever a wee bit more involved, but keep it in perspective---this potential difficulty is with any subsequent rework, not the supplied route.

Oh...one more thing...

secluded...I didn't forget, it was by choice.
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Re: South London Network global misalignment

Postby danny3 on Sat May 20, 2017 12:26 am

gptech wrote:Yes Bob...you know my standards are lower than a snake's belly :wink:

Let's just throw some facts, real not alternative, about....

SNL was released in November 2014.
It's taken 2 1/2 years for this huge error to be stumbled upon. (Discounting Danny who was keeping it to himself)

Does that mean that the 2 1/2 years some may have had enjoying the route actually be a false memory?.....after all, who can truly enjoy anything that isn't perfect?.


It was known about but at the stage where it was too late to change it, it could have potentially taken at least 2-3 months to replace the scenery and re-route the track as well, as much as I would have wanted to do so there simply wasn't enough time to be given to that (deadlines to meet). It wasn't easy to add things such as New Cross and the link between Surrey Quays to Peckham Rye in my case, however, I had to work around what was given to me, I accept that isn't the best solution but it worked fairly ok.

To be honest, most people wouldn't have noticed this to be fair when driving scenarios (as it wouldn't affect timings by that much), I didn't keep this as a secret though (I was only a route builder and was part of the route, but was partly done by a 3rd party), nor do I judge the person who laid the track for London Bridge (as he used the tools that he had at his disposal). If I had the time, I would have probably re-laid the track but London Bridge isn't a nice section of track to relay as well as New Cross depot and similar.

In the case of South London & Thameslink - I just worked around it with decals, I'm just frustrated with those because it makes it harder to paint terrain and place scenery.
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Re: South London Network global misalignment

Postby gptech on Sat May 20, 2017 1:39 am

danny3 wrote:but at the stage where it was too late to change it


danny3 wrote:most people wouldn't have noticed this to be fair when driving scenarios


danny3 wrote:nor do I judge the person who laid the track for London Bridge (as he used the tools that he had at his disposal)


Which is my point exactly...nobody has noticed, or has been bothered until some research has been done leading to the discovery that it's slightly out. It's changed nothing, folk can still enjoy the route.
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